This is a good update, but you REALLY REALLY need to have stereo streaming through the 3G network and NOT just WiFi. This should be a very high priority for you as right now things sound terrible in MONO (I don't know how anyone can listen to MONO these days). The Tuner app for the iPhone streams in stereo over 3G as well as the Live365 app on my Windows Mobile phone. It's time for Pandora to do the same - at least as a choosable OPTION. It would also be nice to be able to control the amount of buffering that the app does, like Live365 does.

Pandora would be fantastic except for the one VERY fatal flaw - stereo 3G streaming.

Tony

What bitrate is the "Stereo over WiFi" version verses the "3G" version?

@Tones2

Absolutely agree that Pandora will in fact be better when we can stream stereo over the cellular connection. But it's all about bitrates. The highest bitrate we can stream at reliably on 3G is 64Kbps and using MP3 the stereo files just sound terrible compared to the mono versions. Sure you get some stereo separation but to cram the extra channel in you lose all kinds of musical fidelity. Sounds like the music is coming from the bottom of a well. We're continuing to work on audio quality across all connection types so this isn't the final word on the subject by any means.

@Jay

I can say we're streaming 128K over wifi, but the bitrate over cellular is a bit of a moving target. We're still experimenting with various bitrates and codecs with the goal of giving the best possible listening experience over the widest range of network conditions.

@Tom

Thanks for the reply. However, the iPhone "Tuner" app streams 128kbps STEREO streams just fine. So does Live365 on my Windows Mobile 6 phone. Also, both applications also have 64kbps radio stations that stream in stereo, and they sound much much better than the Pandora mono streams. So I truly don't know what the issue is here. There is no way in the world that a mono stream at a higher kbps sounds better than a stereo stream at a lower bit rate. It's not just about stereo seperation - it's about phase cancelation, hearing individual instruments when the vocals are present, depth of field, etc. Night and day difference here, especially for more complex and noisier material such as progressive metal.

One thing that I noticed is the Pandora does not seam to buffer the stream to any great extent. The Live365 app is a great example of how smooth the playback can be with proper buffering. Here is amount of buffering is selectable by the USER, so they can choose the trade-off between smooth streaming and access time to new stations. It works great in that app.

I hope that you at least give the users of an OPTION of stereo streaming in the near future.

Thanks,

Tony

ummm... i see in the App Store where version is now 1.1, but when i download, click on the app, and check the version number, it still says 1.0

wtf

I have had a problem with both 1.0 and 1.1. Quite frequently the whole song won't play. It has nothing to do with my touching the display as it is usually sitting in a dock when this occurs. It will just randomly cut off a song in the middle and move to the next song.

Can you guys work something out so that I can access Pandora on other versions of iPod?

Any update on a windows mobile version of pandora, or has it been shelved indefinitely?

Excellent work!

Just tried it on my iPod touch. Amazing sound quality!

Ran into my boss' office today and found she was listening to Pandora too...

I'm noticing that when I sort alphabetically that "The Band" comes up under "T" rather than "B". Same with all stations with format "The ".

Other than that, nice as always.

Downloaded 1.1 and was surprised to see the ability to play my multiple radio stations on random mode has been removed as an option. Is it just me or was this one of the best things about 1.0?

I have a VERY reproducible bug on the new version...

With headphones in, When I start playing a song and then click the SLEEP/WAKE button to lock it the audio immediately drops WAY lower, like from 100% volume to 40%.

Still audible but considerably lower

Audio level is restored then if you wake it and skip to the next song, or take out headhpones, put them back in and press play.

Any ideas? Thanks!!!

Thanks for the excellent work. But I gotta say, I didn't wait in line for the "3G" iPhone because I was excited about 64kbps limit. Seriously, you guys need to include high bitrate stereo for 3G. If a longer buffer is needed, so be it. At least make it a user option. I got this phone specifically for streaming music in my car.

Anyone else having trouble with this? I downloaded the updated app and now I just see the opening wallpaper with no progress circle for about 20 seconds before my iPhone goes back to the home screen. I have downloaded and erased it 3 times now to no avail. The same outcome over wifi, 3G, and EDGE. It was working fine before the update.

I just found out about Pandora. I just want to say it is amazing, I do not know how I lived without it. I hope you guys and gals keep up the great work, thank you so much for this great media experience.

You rock!!!!

I got my iPhone yesterday, and the first thing I did was get the Pandora app (this was a main reason for me buying an iPhone).

Wow.

You guys have made an amazing product. And now it's even better than before.

This is all new, so I'm sure that the updates the other users are demanding will come in the future, but for me, all I have to say is Wow.

Oh, and thank you.

Sounds great, but are you any closer to releasing this for Canada?

I'd like those who say that Pandora has good sound quality do an A / B comparison between it and the "Tuner" app. Pick any 64kbps station on Tuner - it will stream perfectly in STEREO over 3G. Now listen to Pandora over 3G (not WiFi) right after and compare the sound quality. The Tuner app in Stereo will sound much better - guaranteed.

Note that 64kbps is considered FM quality, which is still pretty darn good. 128kbps is CD quality, but in MONO it sounds more like 32 bits.

Tony

After updating to 1.1, I find the volume control for this app is frozen. It's set HIGH so that basically means I can't use this with headphones. Tried reinstalling it twice with no success. Really love this app for the Touch and hope I can figure out a fix without resorting to a complete restore of my player. Any ideas out there?

Thank you for the update. The resume option and stereo over vi-fi are really important, however streaming stereo over 3G is priority, as the magority of iPhone useres need it on the go.

Also, the Pandora app has to dimm the screen instead turning it off while the iPhone being charged. Please bring this feature for us.

I just wanted to thank you for the update.

I just noticed the resume feature today, when I hit the home button by accident, and it's super cool.

If you can, please please please, hook up the headphone button so that it will pause the music. Please.

Please.. Please.. Please.. have the Stereo option for 3G connection. Let the user decide to use it or not.

You realize there are more people with Blackberry's than with iPhone's... where our love? I would love Pandora on my 8830...

I'm also having the skipping problem...song stops and moves to next song. I'm using Exchange and wonder whether the syncs or something else may be interfering with the stream. Pandora...any ideas?

I too, am having the skipping problem. I emailed Pandora and they said it's the network, but my network has full strenght and some song play the whole length without me touching or moving my iPhone. Help!

Hi, just wanted to say how much I love the new app for iphone/ipod touch. I'm pretty much addicted to Pandora and even bought my new cell phone specifically so I could listen on there, but was kinda pissed about the monthly charge from AT&T. This website is blocked at my office, so this was pretty much a lifesaver. Thanks~!

I am having the same problem as Casey. Never had any trouble before the update, but with 1.1 the app will sit at the opening screen for 10-15 sec. then go back to the home screen. I do not see any progress "circle", just the image.

Anyone else having trouble with this? I downloaded the updated app and now I just see the opening wallpaper with no progress circle for about 20 seconds before my iPhone goes back to the home screen. I have downloaded and erased it 3 times now to no avail. The same outcome over wifi, 3G, and EDGE. It was working fine before the update.

Posted by: Casey at July 25, 2008 09:12 PM

I have the same problem as Casey. No probs before, but with 1.1 all the app does is sit at the welcome screen for 10 secs then goes back to Home screen

After using 1.1 for a few days, I still love the radio stations song selections at the core of Pandora itself, but the iPhone player still needs some work. I'd offer the following suggestions, in order of importance:

1) The stream needs to have an option to be in STEREO over 3G cellular. There should also be a user choice of buffer size.

2) There should be a progress bar indicating the length of the song and where the song is currently playing, like the iPod player does. Live365 does this well in it's Windows Mobile player. Right now, I have no idea if the song is going to play for another 30 minute or 30 seconds.

3) The name of the artist and album name are almost impossible to read in sunlight. They are just too small and lightly colored. I know you took this format direct from the iPod player, but the difference is that I always know the artist that I'm playing when I'm using the iPod, but I often do NOT know the artist playing over Pandora - and if I like the song and I'm outside, it's very very hard to see the artist name. This is critical info that should be more prominant in the display or at least on another screen that can be displays with a button. Right now, there is WAY too much screen real estate for the cover art.

4) I also have been getting random song skipping in 1.1 as soon have noted above.

5) This is more of a long term request, but how about an option to search the Web for song lyrics of the song currently playing? That'd be pretty cool, but a low priority item.

Thanks,

Tony

I'm also having the 1.1 problem where it just sits on the welcome screen and then crashes back to the iPhone home page. I miss Pandora :(

Im having the same volume issue when iphone it drops at least by !/2 sometimes if it does not go back to normal at the next song i have to restart Pandora, anything i can do? Im really feeling Pandora its a great app

Hi,

I think iphone have actually brought revolution in 3G mobile technology. iphone have got fast accessing speed even in WiFi. iphone rocks.

Ricky
------------------------------------------------

http://blog.widecircles.com

I must say, I am extremely impressed by this app! I have been listening to Pandora on my phone a lot lately and it's been great.

Although, I have had the skipping problem, where a song will be playing and suddenly stop and start the next song.

I updated to the new 1.1 and now I don't get anything. The app loads and then freezes and shuts down. Is there something I need to do?

it appears that one needs to update his touch to version 2 in order for your app to work. For those of us who want to stay on a jailbroken 1.1.4 (for obvious reasons) are there instructions to install Pandora manually (using WinSCP, etc). Otherwise, we have to go to Last.fm which has that ability.

Thanks

Pandora works fine on my iPhone at home, which makes me think that the issue is, in fact, the consistency of the wireless network at my office. Though it seems that Pandora is particularly sensitive to brief hiccups in the connections; would be nice if it could "recover" better.

PLEASE make this available for the Verizon Blackberry.. I love Pandora, but I'm not buying an iphone.

Has anyone else noticed that version 1.1 of Pandora doesn't remember the username and password in Settings?

@luke
Not to worry, when the updated app starts up on your iPhone, you'll see the correct version number (currently 1.1) displayed in the lower right of the black Pandora screen. As for what's listed for 'Get Info' in iTunes, we'll look into working with Apple to get that corrected.

@tvzi
@nehurd
This is something that might take some Q&A to get resolved. I'd suggest contacting pandora-support@pandora.com with some more information about the local network you're using.

@eurosdr
QuickMix should always be listed at the top of the station list in 1.1, whether that list is sorted by date or name-- as long, of course, as you have more than one station in your account. Feel free to send a screenshot (briefly hold the power and menu buttons at the same time, there will be a white flash, and a screenshot will appear in your Camera Roll Photo Album) to pandora-support@pandora.com if you still can't find QuickMix in your station list!

@joseph
I couldn't reproduce this on my first-gen iPhone running 1.1, no matter where the hardware or software volume settings were set. Feel free to get in touch with pandora-support@pandora.com to give us more detail on your iPhone specs and what headphones you're using, etc.

@casey
@laplace808
@heather
@help
Hi guys, sorry about that. There are a number of possible causes for this behavior, and we're still trying to see which of them we can do something about. Have you tried turning your iPhone off and back on again? If so, and the issue persists, try deleting the app entirely and reinstalling. You may need to tether your iPhone and log out of the iTunes Store account you used to download the app originally, and then log back in, before you reinstall. Feel free to write to pandora-support@pandora.com for further assistance, if needed.

@bkl
@vixensfo
Thanks for your patience! There are a few volume-control issues we're working on in concert with Apple, specifically the disconnect between hardware and software volume controls, and also the difficulty in finding the 'sweet spot' to adjust the software volume control. Some people find it helps to hold their finger in place for a second before moving it, or to place their finger just to either side of the volume marker. You can also try just using the hardware volume controls, but be sure to leave the software control set to a low volume to protect your ears in case you touch the screen accidentally.

@everyone
Thanks so much for the comments and feedback. We're always listening, and always excited to bring you new features and improvements. Thanks again for listening to Pandora!

Where is the love for WM6 users?

Pandora sounds great on WiFi, and in fact my uneducated ear doesn't really notice the mono too much when on the road... sounds so much better than over the air radio in the least, especially when you consider its personalized and commercial free!

Keep up the excellent work Pandora Team... when I heard Pandora was going to be on the iPhone I couldn't resist!

Yes, Pandora would be the king if it could only stream stereo via 3G at a decent bitrate.

Last.fm has a GREAT stereo sound to its stream, but its music algorithm is poor compared to Pandora's - every time I replay my Last.fm it plays the same songs again - not good. Not to mention the bugs and instability in the Last.fm app.

As a test, I started streaming Pandora via WiFi at my house and played a song - it was of course playing at a decent bitrate in stereo. I then went into my iPhone 3G settings and switched WiFi off, defaulting the iPhone back to 3G, and then went back in to Pandora. It picked up where I left off and the song was still playing in stereo! The song finished out fine, without any stutter or breakup, but of course the next song that played was back to mono. So I know you guys can implement stereo streaming via 3G! Let's do it! Thanks for such an incredibly great product.

For everyone for whom the pandora songs stops mid songs and skips to the next one, go to "settings," switch the WiFi network to "off" and the skipping should stop. It worked for me.

Probably a stupid question, but how do I tie the iPhone to my Pandora.com account? I have some stations set up on the iPhone, which I did before I signed up on Pandora.com. Now that I have stations on the web, how can I make the iPhone app use those stations? I don't see anywhere to tap for any kind of settings or setup. I know I'm missing something obvious...

Assume app for the iPhone 3G! I love it.

I'm having the skipping problem, too, but it sounds like you are already away of this issue.

I like Pandora. However, there is DEFINITELY A BUG in it's SW since the volume control IS USELESS most of the time. It does not sense the touch and cannot be adjusted.

@Adam

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try it out. If it holds for me, it would seem something about the streaming from Wi-Fi was broken when the app was updated to 1.1.

I've been listening to Pandora radio quite awhile
and enjoy it a lot.Being able to pick exactly what
you want to hear with nothing else(including commercials) is great!!my only beef is with the
Adobe flash player you have to have to listen to
Pandora.it is frequently cutting out and inter-
rupting songs!!WHAT IS UP WITH THAT? It is so irr-
itating!!PLEASE FIX IT!!! Thanks!!

Great app. It's my most used iPhone application, topping even my use of the phone part of the iPhone!

I am an audiophile and find the quality of Pandora streamed over 3G to be very good!

There have been a few times I have wished I could see the details of or bookmark a song that finished playing. Would it be possible to add this feature to the Pandora iPhone app?

Thanks for a great product!

Any update on a windows mobile version of pandora, or has it been shelved indefinitely?

All you need to know is that Pandora's been saying they're going to provide a Windows Mobile client for, oh, a year or so now.

In other words, "Go Cheney yourself."

I love the Pandora app for the iPod Touch / iPhone. One feature that I'd really love to see is for it to include rotation so if I dock my device on its side, it'd reorient itself. I don't think this additional feature would be tooooo hard to implement (favorite last words).

Other than that, Its sweet. By the way, if I hit the >>| button, does that mean "I like it, but don't play it for a month"? Is that option not implemented on the iPhone client?

thanks!
-Michael
http://dinsmoreworkshop.com

Great App!!!! I have a 2G iPhone. One rather unhappy problem is that when on the Edge network incoming phone calls are not coming thro. They are getting directed to voice mail after just one ring. I have not checked the same while on a WiFi network (did not get any phone calls while using this on WiFi). Please fix this. I'm already hooked on the app but it'll definitely be a problem if incoming phone calls do not come through!!!

I downloaded pandora when it first came out and I loved the first version. When I saw the update I downloaded that in a heartbeat as well. But ever since I downloaded the update I've had the same problems listed above. The volume will drop right after I but my ipod touch on sleep. The other problem is the skipping of the songs!!! Forgive me if I am wrong but aren't update supposed to FIX problems not add to them? If you could please work this out before it skips another of my favorite tunes.

Other than that I love your program and you're doing a good job.

@those who comment that 64k bitrate sounds quality is too low. You realize that this is 128k "quality", just in mono, right? Fidelity wise, there is no difference, just one channel instead of two.

@impatient iphone users (I am one as well)

Realize this is a free app for us, that others have to pay *monthly* for. Realize that *your* ability to stream 128kbits on other apps over your *local* 3g network means only so much. 3g speeds vary by locality, and are not guaranteed (cell networks are shared resources, so if others around you use it often and heavily it will decrease your own bandwidth). I do, however, agree that it would be nice to have buffer/bitrate options laid out for us so that we can customize it based on our g (2g/3g) and local network conditions. It would be awesome to be able to switch back to the springboard and keep the music playing, too.

Thank you for the current killer iphone app.

I'm with the many others...PPPLEASE bring this to Windows Mobile soon!

The pandora application should be available for the Blackjack 2 from AT&T!!!

I love using the Pandora Iphone app. My friends and I are constantly tuning in to listen to some sweet jams. The only thing that I dislike about the Ipod version is that you can't search for stations that have been created on the actual site. I understand that there are probably some serious technical barriers that bring down the availability of such an option, but it would be a nice feature to have if you guys can manage it.

Greets

I felt sick when I read the article at Huffington Post recently about the problems you're having. We LOVE Pandora & I tell all my friends about it. There has to be a way to preserve this! Is there anyone we can write to? Hang in there! You are really appreciated by your fans.

@Kulfi
It is the limitation of EDGE network. Only 3G can have voice and data simultaneously.

"Absolutely agree that Pandora will in fact be better when we can stream stereo over the cellular connection. But it's all about bitrates. The highest bitrate we can stream at reliably on 3G is 64Kbps and using MP3 the stereo files just sound terrible compared to the mono versions. Sure you get some stereo separation but to cram the extra channel in you lose all kinds of musical fidelity."

Surely your audio engineers know that it is incredibly inefficient to transmit a stereo program as two distinct full-bit-rate channels. Most of the information in the left and right channels of typical stereo program material is the same, with small differences accounting for the stereo imaging, and as a result many schemes have been developed and deployed for efficiently encoding digital stereo audio with a small incremental increase over the the needed bitrate for equivalent-quality monaural audio:

http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/research_parametric_stereo.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/266577/Stereo-Coding-for-Audio-Compression

http://www.google.com/patents?id=0E4jAAAAEBAJ&dq=5278909

...and so on.

Please tell me that your statement above implying that you would need a second 64kb channel to produce stereo audio equivalent in quality to 64kb mono audio does not actually reflect the position of Pandora's engineering.

Lest you think I am down on Pandora, let me just say that if my iPhone didn't do anything else -- including make phone calls -- I would still happily pay for it just to run Pandora, which I consider a paradigm-shifting product. I know you're going through a crisis at the moment, and it would truly be a tragedy, in my view, if you were to be forced to close your doors. Perhaps some sort of revenue channel can be formed from the mobile carriers; I would be willing to endure an increase in my monthly service ($5? $10?) for Pandora access.

im loving this app for the i phone.... although i am having a tough time finding a dock that dosen't sound distorted with cracking and popping when not on the 3g network. I am not able to get 3g at my house and would love to listen to it at home but as soon as i dock it it stops playing. very unhappy.... is it my speakers or is it a problem not being on the 3g?

Simplify Media streams music over the 3G in stereo. In fact, it doesn't just do that, it also determines what the best possible bitrate should be based on connection speed. I really dig Pandora but am surprised at the 'excuses' for the abysmal quality over 3G.

>Posted by: Amber at July 29, 2008 11:41 AM
>
>Has anyone else noticed that version 1.1 of >Pandora doesn't remember the username and password >in Settings?

This is happening to me as well. I have to manually enter it, if I don't then it says it can't sync my stations!

Pandora,

Thanks for this great iPhone app. Like others I am having trouble adjusting the volume slider. Sometimes it just won't budge.

I also have a feature request! I was out mowing the lawn and thought it would be cool if volume level would adjust automatically based on ambient audio levels in the vicinity. i.e., Turn the lawn mower on and the application hears the audio level through the microphone and raises the playback level automatically... turn the mower off and the playback level automatically decreases.... Just a thought- but let me tell ya, it would sure beat pulling out my iPhone every 5-10 minutes to adjust volume.

Oh and by the way, if anyone from Apple reads this, this would be a great feature for the iPod application as well.

;)

I love listening to it at ease.
But it would be better that I can access other apps while keeping Pandora work at background.

Cheers

HI

AOL Radio sounds perfect on Iphone.

Pandora sounds terible lol.

And I love my Pandora on PC,
so fix sound quality pritty pritty pleace.

ONT

Hmmmmm

AOL Radio sounds terible to if
phone is not on WI FI.

So my bad on last post.

Hope thers a fix for G3.

ONT

I just put Pandora v.1.2 on my iphone v2.1 I like the functionality, and the music genome appears to work brilliantly. BUT.... after playing for a few minutes (on WiFi) the sound starts "strobing" and it completely hangs my iphone, to the point that the power button can't even turn it off. Is there a memory management problem, in which the buffer fills all memory? Shouldn't, since my phone has more than 10GB available. Something else? Any away around this?

I've been using the latest version of this application on my original iPhone for months just fine, until recently the stream hesitates for a second or two every ten seconds.
...it's irritating. Did Pandora change something about the stream?

No matter the signal strength, it hesitates. I reinstalled twice, uninstalled applications that were recently added, turned my "fetch" to manual, and never used the high-quality feature.... Nothing seems to work. Any leads? Has anyone cured this problem before?

I have the same hesitation problem and have not found a cure, either. Help! I miss Pandora!!

The Pandora iPhone application is not available to Canadian iPhoners and is not listed on the Canadian iTunes store or the Canadian iPhone Apps store. Why is this?
Is this just an oversight or are you restricting Pandora to Americans?. Your response would be much appreciated. Please reply. Thanks.

OK,

@ibc and Eric and others -- Sorry for the wait for WinMo; we know the listeners demand it but we don't want to cry wolf about release dates. All I can say is sit tight...

@John -- Pandora hasn't yet obtained the rights to broadcast in countries outside the US yet. Again sorry for this, it's totally on the to-do list.

@everyone with tech problems -- Make sure you have the latest update for the iPhone app (1.2.1) and if you are still having trouble, hit up pandora-support@pandora.com with any questions and one of our tech support wizards will help you out promptly.

Take care all,
A

I have a similar problem as one or 2 others have already posted. When I plug iPhone into speaker dock , it may play a few songs , then it stops. I didn't have this problem until the new update. Is there a fix for this?

I love ... or should I say loved ... pandora.

Now with the constant hesitation/skipping its impossible to listen to any songs on my iPhone and have instead been forced to use a different internet radio application. Please Pandora fix whatever seems to be the problem!

iPhone - Pandora 2.0.1

Problem... Phone won't accept calls while using ap. I really like using it, but I can't afford to miss calls. It doesn't even register that someone called.

Help!!!

yea your having problems because the iPhone sucks! get with it, the iPhone 'craze' has came and went. The phone looks like a brick in the hand, its far too big. AND SLOW!

Gotta say, "Pandora One" seriously kicks ass! Will gladly pay $36 per year for the higher bit rate and no ads. Wish I would have known about it sooner. Or was it just released? Why can't I skip more than 6?

I love the idea of Pandora in the car, but I'm a stickler on audio quality. We already have a Sprint Mobile WiFi device on our cell plan that we rarely use all the monthly 5G download limit for, so I picked up a used iPod touch and I'm all set. The quality sounds quite good. My question is, what is the bitrate via WiFi on the iPod Touch when "High Quality" is selected?

I have the smartphone verizon tour 9300 series. I was receiving pandora radio. Loved it and now it will only play a song for a line or two and then quit. It refers me to the thumbplay or 10 bonus tones, then if I go to more information it wants me to purchase tones for 9.99 a month. My daughter receives it and others. Please advise. or sometimes it says please wait for the next track to load. I have checked everything out with my verizon company. Please advise Thanks,.

like some others already on here- the volume control on mine wont work on the touchscreen. slides back and forth but volume doesnt change. what DOES work are the side buttons. iphone4 current OS, 32gb version. Updated pandora this morning.

OH, and I will second the need for stereo on 3G. I play pandora almost exclusively in my car thru headphone jack into the head unit and the sound is terrible.

What is the memory load for Pandora 1.1? It seems to bring down my memory about 40 mb on my 3g. (Not multitasking) Mind you it does not have the A4 like the IPhone 4 and a limited amount of RAM to run this app.

What is the memory load for Pandora 1.1? It seems to bring down my memory about 40 mb on my 3g. (Not multitasking) Mind you it does not have the A4 like the IPhone 4 and a limited amount of RAM to run this app.

I love Pandora and was ready to cancel my XM account and put that towards the paid version of pandora however, I can't seem to rely on Pandora lately as it cuts out all the time on both my iPhone and iPad pushing me back to the XM...anything coming up to fix that?

Hey, I have a 3G iPhone and my friend has a 3GS. We both have the updated Pandora free app, but if I'm playing music on the app and exit out, the music immediately stops. My friend can exit out of Pandora and the music will keep playing, so she is free to surf the web and listen to pandora music. Can anyone help me so I can surf and listen too?