I've taken instrumental and vocal lessons and that's all well and good when I'm performing, but when I'm listening to music, I'm listening. Not nitpicking. Sure there will be a moment every once in a while where I cringe and shutter because of somone/something out of tune and I can't figure out for the life of me why rap is considered music but besides that my training as you might call it doesn't really effect the way I listen to music.

Well, I'm a musician on different levels, and it's given me a huge advantage when listening to music. First off, I play multiple instruments (some decently and some horribly) including (can I show off some?!) alto/soprano/tenor sax, flute, snare drum, piano/keyboard, guitar/bass. These give me a big advantage when listening to tracks that showcase these instruments. I know the oboe is hard to play, but I don't know how hard, so hearing someone rock out on an oboe would make me say 'interesting that sounds kinda crazy' whereas hearing someone of the same skill level wail on a sax makes me say 'damn that was the sexiest solo i've ever heard'.

That said, I'm also a DJ. No not the wikkidy wikkidy scratchin kind, but a sell out mobile dj. I play what everyone wants to hear at a party (usually wedding receptions and frat parties and the like). So I have to have an ear for what people want to hear or what flows together, much like your software must. [and might i say as a first time poster here your software does a fantastic job!].

The thing is, when I'm DJing I can hear peoples comments and see their faces, I can look up and see that no one is dancing. Best of all I can just walk out there to someone who I've been talking to or have a repor with and say what gives man! that dude in the corner requested this why don't you like it!? Granted, by experience I know what kind of requests to actually play and which ones to put on while packing up.

Point is, it's all about feedback. Launch.com did it ok with a 5 star rating, and pandora is doing awesome with a simple thumbs up thumbs down, but sometimes that's not good enough. I have one station, for instance, that puts on some indie pop kind of stuff. It's cool and you guys have really helped me find some music that I would have NEVER ever found in my entire life time. In fact, I will confidently say that I didn't even KNOW I was that into the genre till I added ONE band to a station and it helped me branch out and fine tune which parts of that genre I liked and which I didn't. But when the suggestion is a mistake, ouch, it really sticks out to me. Sometimes couldn't tell you why, but sometimes it's obvious and I'd love to say "don't play any music with a singer that growl the whole song through".

In essence, I'd like to see a more in depth feedback. Leave it so thumbs up thumbs down is there for me when I'm lazy or don't know or don't care, but give me an option to tell you WHY i don't like some songs. Or even why i do like some songs. Perhaps something like thumbs up thumbs down for multiple things, ie singer, melody, tempo. Some bands have one song that is perfect for a station, but the next track on that cd is waay to slow but you put it on anyway. etc etc.

Then you know what would be really cool to see? In the artist about page, you could show what some people like / dislike about that artist in statistical fashion. For instance the macarena, most of the people who would thumbs that one up probably like upbeat techno songs. Some probably only want songs with some sort of dance to them for their goofy party they are hosting.

Just my 3 cents. Since it's a bit long to be only 2 cents.

Come on Andy, we all know bari saxes are the best. I play alto and tenor and bari. I wish I could make a station that showcases a specific instument, like saxophone, that pulls from all sorts of genres. I don't know many songs that showcase saxophones so I couldn't easily do one myself.

I thought your insight and analogy was very good. No we dont have to be musicians to know what we do or dont like. But I find it sad that there is a whole population of listeners out there that base their musical selections on the crowed they hang with. Peer pressure has a tremendous influence on us and also carries over to what someone plays on their car radio (pushing the volume to the max) or boombox. Today its about impressing your hommies with what your lestening to rather than what you might truley enjoy. Just a thought.............

Recently, I have not been able to download Pandora Radio station to listen to. I thought it was a free station. I really can not afford a membership, because I am on a fix income. I really miss Pandora. I am really sad about the situation.

Charlotte D. Brooks
St. Louis, MO

I have played many instruments and have done some singing, but piano is my instrument of choice. However, my most powerful musical experiences have been in group performances. I grew up playing in school bands and singing in choirs or accompanying choirs. This training has taught me to especially appreciate the swells and climaxes of songs, those moments that just take your breath away. These moments are generally just a few measures long, but those few measures are most memorable and is where I fall in love, over and over again, with music. I'm a lover of alternative music like John Mayer and Gavin DeGraw, but the classical oratorios, requiems, and contatas are particularly moving as seen in Handel's Messiah or Mozart's Lacrymosa.

I think that the music people like is the music that they identify with. The artists or songs you like are probably saying what you would say if you had the musical ability or opportunity to create and record a song. As for peer pressure, I have to admit that I think it does play a big role these days which is why music is in the state it is today. Many people couldn't be bothered to think for themselves and gladly accept the music that is forced down their throats, this way they won't make a mistake and choose the wrong thing. Silly I know.

I've been a musician since 3rd grade and have a degree in music composition and I'd like to say that knowing the mechanics of creating music can be very misleading. It's easy when you are first learning to play an instrument to get caught up in the louder, faster higher thing because you are impressed by the skill of a player. The thing you have to remember is that music is not a sport and technical proficiency does not equal musical ability. When I listen to music I can see the notes in my head and I actually visualize the hand positions etc. necessary to play what I'm hearing, this comes from many many years of playing, It's almost like practicing. Actually this is what led me to listen to some players that were technically awesome but poor musicians, I won't name names because who am I to tell anybody what's good or not, I think that we all should do that for ourselves and all opinions are equally valid. I just wanted to pass this on because it took me several years to realize and if I can help anyone else progress in their musical journey, well then great.

It is a very interesting question how much musical knowledge increases the enjoying of music. I've always been under the assumption that the more you know about it the better. For instance, in "Awaken" by Yes, you wouldn't appreciate the part where they go through the entire circle of fifths. But then again, should it really be enjoyed just because they are doing something unusual?

Although I at the same time I think that you definitely don't need to "know" music to enjoy something. For instance, when we are listening to Beatles music, my friend consistently sings along when the lead vocal is tutti harmonized. But in discussing this with her, it is obvious that she doesn't know that that is what makes her sing and sometimes even says she can't hear that two people are singing.

Along the same lines, I tried to tell another friend about how they sing "Frere Jacques" (sp??) in the background of the last verse of "Paperback Writer," but he said that he could hear anyone singing other than the lead. Although I couldn't really say if these things are caused by lack of musical knowledge or not.

I'd also like to say that Scott makes a great point that music is not a sport. Something that I always tell people who are enamored by all kinds of musical gimmickry, but they never understand, and maybe for them that is why they enjoy the music, not because it is musically good but because they think it is good/hard to play.

I agree that rap music is non-music and it is forced on the media to reach kids to pull them into the gansta, dope dealing, guns and prostitution junk while as they depict their lifstyle as the high life. Ugh.

That aside, I enjoy, no I am obsessed with music and have studied piano most of my life. I used to love jazz when I was young, but it changed into smooth jazz, sounding like musak, elevator music, cocktail party music and what they play on the weather channel. Now, thanks to Pandora Radio, I am exploring all the newer artists in the jazz world and am absolutely amazaed at the variety, intensity and pure genius that is out there. Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran, The Bad Plus, John Hicks - all are wonderful jazz players and I have a new appreciation of jazz now and am collecting albums and downloading cuts like crazy. I will definately email your people to get some info on jazz.

I'd love to go but I live in Mass.

I was a musician in another life. I will admit I was mediocre at best. I could have been really, really good. At the risk of sounding conceited, the talent was there,and I suppose probably still is, but I didn't use it. I started playing the clarinet in fourth grade, and played it through the 8th grade. In high school, I played the alto and tenor sax. I spent a year as a music major, playing the tenor sax, before deciding it wasn't for me. I finally graduated with a degree in broadcast production. I think it is fair to make this comparison. You do not have to have some kind of experience working with the mechanics of production in television and radio (which also does teach you things about movie production of course) to appreciate and enjoy television and movies. However, there are times when I find myself thinking, "Wow, that is a wonderful filmed scened. I love how they did that camera shot." Or maybe I think, "That is so awesome that the music in the TV show that they are watching is function as the soundtrack for the movie." I still enjoy what I am watching. I do my best not to think about it, but it is a part of me. And, even though it's been a long time since I have had any experience dealing with the mechanics of music, I sometimes find myself doing the same thing with music. It's a part of me as well, and always will be. And I'm not talking about "analyzing" classical or jazz music. I enjoy those, but I really listen mainly to metal, punk, or even mellow stuff like Sting, Paul Simon, stuff like that. And even with metal, I love stuff where they sing and have good voices and harmonize. I love it when they can scream and also sing. I think with some songs maybe my musical experience actually has affected whether or not I like them. Even with the fast music, I can tell when they are doing technically difficult stuff, and I sometimes think about it. I can tell if someone is singing out of tune, and that can affect my opinion of the song, but not every single time. I think my history of music experience does affect the fact that I do not like rap, or that bubble gum, cookie-cutter junk. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about. It is possible that somewhere in the back of my mind, my music experience is affecting my musical taste, the songs I like and such, but I just enjoy music and really am not aware of any of that on kind of conscious level, not usually.

I can't believe the closed-minded people here!

To all the commentators that have been dissing rap, just because the mainstream rap is drug/gang/violence related, doesn't mean that all rap is... I guess we could get into the semantics of the genres, although I am not sure that will help...

I ask that you start a new station here on Pandora... add some great "rap" artists, like Lyrics Born, Gift of Gab, Jurassic 5... then tell me that you don't think that they are talented or worthy of being "music"...

Drew

I do have a critical radar, though I don't often use it because I try to stay open to all genres of music. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean is isn't performed, played or recorded well. I grew up with music. Born in the late 50's so I was front row (in front of our tv) for Elvis, The Beatles and Stones on the Ed Sullivan Show. "Tonite we have a reeealy greaat show (prenounced sheeooh)"!! (haha) I play piano, sang in the church choir (who didn't?). My first boyfriend and husband was and is a drummer. Did the LA circuit. My hey day was in the late 70's and 80's. I'm a generation X (thats pre Billy Idol).. I was there for the intro to post punk "new wave" and alternative music. INXS, Elvis Costello, Joe Jackson, The Pretenders, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers at the Whisky (that was awesome). And Oingo Boingo at the Roxy..I have an ear for "good music". All kinds. There are genres of music that I don't really care for but I still listen to learn. I can hear a song and say "damn thats good". I love it when talented musicians are blessed to play together and I am privaledged to listen.. My boys, 18 and 16 are musicians bass and drums.. and my 18 year old would like to produce someday. Hes looking into internship during college. My fiance is an awesome guitar player. He also plays bass and keyboards. He loves to create music. He started playing guitar at 10. Like josh mentioned, he had the talent but he wasn't sure how to pursue a career outside of playing in a rock and roll band at parties in the 70's and 80's. Musis is the BACKDROP or if you prefer SOUNTRACK OF OUR LIVES.. Thank you Pandora for opening the eyes and ears to otherwise limited (by no fault of their own) listeners. ROCK ON!!

Re: Andy
On the topic of potential feedback improvements, I would love to see more genome project information as a criteria for song selection. If I could see all the qualities attached to a band and select those that I like, and really create an essence of the sound I'm looking for, I would really have a powerful tool on my hands.

Specifically, heavy metal bands like Pantera and (sometimes) Sepultura have a sort of rhythmic, percussive, groove type of feel that separates them from their thrash or speed metal peers, and it's really something that I would like to explore further. It's odd that I can't do that here, since the system seems designed for it.

It may even be interesting to offer up the genome project into the hands of the users for suggestion. Obviously there would have to be moderation, not like the Wikipedia system, but maybe the listeners could point out something the reviewer missed. At the very least, I'd like to always be able to see what characteristics have been assigned to the music so I know what I'm listening for. That is only offered in a very limited form currently, to my knowledge.

Wow, brand new to Pandora and right off the bat here is a question that really "sings" to me!! (I can do that, can't I?? Or should I be a part of the Pandora world for a little longer before I make cheesy puns?) Anyway, here are a few of my thoughts about whether or not knowledge of a subject are necessary for its enjoyment or even if they ADD anything to it!
Throughout elementary and then high school, I was in the school band, both the marching and concert band and it seems that at the beginning of my school "career" I WAS, for the longest time, the ONLY female trombonist in the entire school district. Or, at least I was...until I think word got around and younger girls started to see that the "rumor" was true...a Girl Trombone player! (C'mon, be honest...if you were in or paid attention to the band, did it NOT seem like the trombones and the tuba, any larger brass instrument was "manned" by the slightly overweight and sadly, "Most Acne Afflicted" boys in the school?!) Anyway...lol...I'd be lying if I said that those experiences in no way changed my feelings about listening to a Sousa march! I learned to love that darn trombone and LOVE being unusual in my choice of instruments.
I guess that, I am perhaps, making the distinction between being able to read music in general (i.e. actually understand whatever it is you're hearing etc...) and being proficient in the oboe at an oboe concert. I don't think that perfection, proficiency, or even just the ability to plunk out chopsticks makes one a "better" listener, just maybe only more of an intellectual snob..heeheehee...

My "other" anecdote is not a musical one but it is within the realm of the Fine Arts so maybe I can get a little wiggle room? Many years ago when I was a Dance Major in college the Board of Directors for the campus Auditorium was ecstatic, gleeful and downright bragging to any and all of the coup they'd achieved in getting the Bolshoi Ballet to come to our Auditorium to perform. Articles were written in the paper about the Bolshoi and it's historical significance etc...etc... Then, the bomb fell! It would be the Student Company of the Bolshoi, not the actual "Bolshoi"!!! Of course, the uproar and indignation were silly and over the top as far as we in the Dance Dept. were concerned but to the Board of Dimwits...it was a catastrophe!
The night of the ballet my mom and I got decked out and set off to the auditorium. We sat throught some of the most beautiful pieces performed by some of the most skilled dancers that that college town has ever seen. As the patrons were all edging out of their aisles after the performance, the lady that had been sitting behind me leaned forward and asked me, "So, I have to admit to you that I've been watching you on and off all night because it's totally obvious to me that you're a dancer as well, right?" I said yes..wondering, and yet knowing what's coming next. She continues, "Well, what did YOU think? As someone who knows WHAT they were doing in more detail than the rest of us did..Was it as good as I thought or were all the naysayers correct and we should go ask for a refund??" (I reassured her that they were indeed FABULOUS and worth every penny no matter whether they were "students" or not. I also told her that if anyone who'd complained knew what they go through in their studies at the Bolshoi....they'd have no more doubts as to the prowess of these artists.)
For this really sweet woman, who'd wanted her young daughter's first time seeing "real" ballerinas to be extra special, she wanted some validation! I KNOW that my knowledge of dance has made me a better audience member and a much more zealously appreciative one...no matter how eclectic or unusual or even if I think something is plain weird...I can open my mind to the complexities and/or intricacies that I wouldn't get otherwise.

And last but not least, I definitely feel that everyone should be exposed to more Classical music. Those ballet classes taught me early on that there's something wonderful in that "stuff" that I thought was just for old folks! Given an idea of how it pertained to dance made me see the music in a whole new light. (Perhaps even, contributing to my decision to stick with the trombone once I got a couple years older?!)
However, it wasn't until Dance History in college and this awesome instructor that I gained an even fuller appreciation. I think that it would be awesome if we could sit down with a group of kids and tell them this great story about a guy who wanted to make a really gutsy, edgy ballet and the man who he chose to be the composer, who was also known for pushing the envelope back in the day. Explaining to them the politics and the economics of the times so they'd see what it meant to go to the theater for these people. It was like going to a long-awaited movie release.
Anyone and everyone went and weeks after an opening even the poorest laborer would remember the melody of these shows. They all knew what they liked, and they also did NOT like things to EVER change or get rearranged or ever be...anything but the pretty dancing ladies accompanied by stalwart, chivalrous "Men".
Ask this group of "kids" if they can imagine going to a concert, (their favorite group...ANY one will do) and seeing the audience RIOTING in the theater, throwing vegetables and fruit and expletives at the band, all because it didn't "sound like what they were accustomed to." They didn't like this new sound which wasn't "pretty" and they didn't like this ballet because it was too......"SEXY!" So, they threw rocks and cabbages and onions and at the stage and grumbled about it long enough to insure it a place in the history books.
I know that as a teenager the idea that this "Classical Music Stuff" was so important to these people that they'd actually riot if they weren't pleased...well, that just blew me away! The fact that they fought with their FISTS, the people who liked the new sound against those who didn't...that this particular piece of Igor Stravinsky's music is occasionally portryed by history and some historians as an intentional attempt at becoming his era's iconoclastis artist...
ALL of this makes for a great story that would be told before they hear a single note. And finally, after all the history is explained and they begin to understand the climate of the times...they'd come to class, be told to close their eyes and remember ALL that they've learned. Imagine that they themselves are THAT audience...as "The Rite of Spring" begins for them to hear. I'll tell ya what...that's what MY Prof did to us and as the first few bars passed over us, I could see what it might have been like! SOOO much of any coutry's history can be found in its Classical music. I think it can give us a lot more about our roots and foundations by the emotions it evokes in us (no matter your Nationality) than a dry, stale, History lecture or book. (And I LOVE books almost more than anything...so, that should tell you something!)

I guess that I could have just written, "Yep, I think it matters and I wish more people would learn a bit about Classical Music because it can show us a lot about ourselves as human beings. But, I definitely think that understanding how music works really matters."...lol....BUT, I have to say that I love the "conversations" that I've read here on Pandora and when surrounded by all of you "smart folks" inspired me or at least made me feel like I NEEDED to contribute something to the discussion! I hope that I did that...and that my perspective gives you something to think about too. I'm willing to bet that Pandora is DEFINITELY going to give me lots to think on!

Thanks all, Have fun and stay well and safe!
Katrina

Just to remind people of what Michael asked, here's a quote from his post earlier:

"what expertise do you have about music that benefits you as a listener? And in a tangential request, what music do you think the rest of us really ought to be exposed to, that you think we might not have been?"

First: I am currently getting classical training through various instruments and voice at a University, and have been classically trained since I was in grade school. I also have played in a band briefly with keyboards and I've composed quite a lot of music with my computer and keyboard in my free time.

I feel that as a gift from my ensemble-trained ear that I can identify better than those untrained ears how to
A: sing the lyrics MUCH BETTER and more similarly to the artists (:P) and,
B: Have more appreciation for every part or sound used throughout the song. When I played in an orchestra, I played the cello. When I sing in a choir, I sing bass. These accompanying parts really provide such consideration to the sometimes ignored parts of music, buried under lyrics and melodies.

Of course, through my training I have a huge appreciation for classical music. However, I'd say that some classical is truly boring (aka Brahms) for listeners alone. I believe most music listeners should at least be exposed to some classical especially during study times. The suggestion of classical music helping us think works.

I prefer instrumental for studying and reading (classical or otherwise) so I can focus on the reading, but that's a little negative from my vocal experience. I pay attention to the way someone sings automatically, and it makes me lose focus on a textbook.

Lastly, people should check out electronic music. I played for my parents Infected Mushroom and yes, they didn't like all the strange sounds that were used, but they had a small appreciation. Let some people be exposed and they will want it more.

My best friend (now my roommate, yes we're ok living together but it seems a fluke... funny i'm listening to a song by an artist named "fluke" in pandora, just had to use the word) first played for me techno and trance and from then on I've tried everything in electronica, especially through pandora.

I absolutely love my electronic instrumental (started just IDM) station I got from this blog a months ago. Of course I added my own twist and I get some vast instrumental electronica ranging from soundscapes to disco influences. check it out (warning it gets pretty strange :D) at http://www.pandora.com/stations/d7b51a9039c08accd1489983efbe266050c65b7e7ff803d6

Mr. Basmt is totally correct, I sent an email earlier about this and I totally agree. Thumbs down and thumbs up is entirely too two-dimensional I wish music was that simple. Perhaps you could implement something that lets you build a station off saying you like a slide bar amount of these different track features (like dry snare or techno influences, etc.) and those can always be edited with the main editing screen.

Meanwhile, anyone who is annoyed at how one song is good while others are not and you can't seem to get the message to pandora, read this:
If you keep putting in more and more input and add in via the edit station a bunch of artists and songs that fit what you want. If tempo is an issue I'm certain that it takes that into account if you put in a lot of fast songs to get faster songs. I have a pretty nice slower tempo station when I want to get to bed soon.

Isn't there a difference between liking something and determining that it is 'good' art?

Similarly, isn't there a fundamental difference between the ability to know whether you like something and the ability to discern whether that something is 'good'?

Or by saying that we like something, are we also making the critical judgment that it is good? I have seen many performances that I thought were 'good' but that I did not much care for, and visa versa. Or does that not make sense?

Personally, as a performer I would rather be told by someone that he liked or enjoyed my show, rather than he thought it was a good show. I don't play for people to think I am good, but because I want the experience of sharing the music I create, and the enjoyment that goes along with it. I want us all to have a good time, to be transformed; I'd like for everyone to let the music do its magic on all of us.

Similarly, I have a hard time listening to music to judge whether it is good or bad. I listen to partake in what the musicians and the music have to offer -- to have fun, to feel things through the music, to be transformed.

If the only way to enjoy music (or any art) were to critically discern whether it is good or bad, whether the players had good technique, whether the composition was structurally sound, etc, I wouldn't have much fun listening. I wonder if we would even consider something like that art.

I really don't know what I personally like about music I listen to. But I listen to punk/hardcore punk and the things I like are if it's fast and heavy.

I was a disc jockey back in the 70's and the thing I've noticed about radio, which seems to be a driving force in determining what we listen to, is that it has become so categorized that if you have one kind of music you like and you find that one kind of music on a station or 2, that's all you will hear, all you will be influenced by, and unfortunately, all you think is worth listening to.
I remember the days, not THAT long ago, when on one given station you would hear Stevie Wonder, followed by Johnny Cash, followed by The Beatles, followed by John Denver and the Rolling Stones, etc, etc. I wish radio would get back to the days of "old" when they didn't just regurgitate the Billboard top 100 of each genre of music on segregated stations with segregated formats. And "classic rock" stations should be playing true "album-oriented rock" that includes a LOT more songs from the classic rock era than what they play now along with all forms of music that are all considered "classic" once they get past a certain age (or whatever the criteria).
Nuff said. Just venting.
Thanks
Debbie

Music is my life

The things I look for in music:

1. Melody
2. Harmony
3. Singing (not chanting) in songs
4. Expert handling of instruments