lyrics turn sound into prayer

Favorite lyrics, huh? I could list 'em for hours, and ramble about 'em for days, and probably never come close to actually making sense.

Lessee, there's old-fashioned poetry, the joy of words that hang together perfectly.

Dylan: Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands, Chimes of Freedom, Mr. Tambourine Man

There's the language of the heart, simple, profound and alternating between them:

Leonard Cohen: Joan of Arc
The Indigo Girls: Ghost, Power of Two
Dire Straits: Romeo and Juliet

There's wit and cleverness and sarcasm:

Dire Straits: Industrial Disease
Warren Zevon: Mr. Bad Example
Pete Townshend: Uniforms

There's expressive fury, the howling of the heart in pain and anger:

Dylan: It's Alright Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)
Leonard Cohen: The Future, Dress Rehearsal Rag, Everybody Knows
Elvis Costello: Pump It Up
The Waterboys: Red Army Blues
Procol Harum: As Strong as Samson
Jackson Browne: Cut It Away

There's the stories and fables:

Dylan: Black Diamond Bay
The Waterboys: The Return of Jimi Hendrix
Paul Simon: Duncan
Cheryl Wheeler: Orbiting Jupiter

There's what I call "Tales of Mystery and Obfuscation", the songs you don't know what they mean, or even if they do mean at all, but whatever they mean, they say it so well:

Genesis: The Carpet Crawlers
The Beatles: Come Together, I Am the Walrus
Counting Crows: Mrs. Potter's Lullaby
The Church: The Unguarded Moment
Dylan: Desolation Row
R.E.M.: Fall On Me

And then there are the songs that a friend of mine calls "home songs", the songs that say so perfectly well where you are, where you've been, who you are and where you're going, that they're just part of you.

Paul Simon: Slip Slidin' Away
Kinky Friedman: Ride 'Em Jewboy
Leonard Cohen: If It Be Your Will
The Waterboys: This Is the Sea

...and so on. I could go on and on and on - it's probably better that I don't. I'm sure this outburst was a bit more than you had in mind. :-)

- Alan -

i get really into lyrics, and i've had a lot of favorites from every genre. my all time favorite words come from lil' wayne. it may sound crazy, but listen to songs other than just the radio songs. everybody on earth, even those who aren't into rap will feel self empowered when listening to his solo stuff. a true genius and one of the best lyricists of all time.

This is possibly my favorite post topic.

Here's mine:
The Beatles, "A Day In The Life"
"He blew his mind out in a car
He didn't notice that the lights had changed
A crowd of people stood and stared
They'd seen his face before"

Flaming Lips, "Waitin' For Superman"
"Tell everybody
Waitin' for Superman
That they should try to hold on
Best they can
He hasn't dropped them
Forgot them
Or anything
It's just too heavy for Superman to lift"

Bright Eyes, "Landlocked Blues"
"We made love on the living room floor
with the noise in the background from a televised war
And in the deafening pleasure I thought I heard someone say
'If we walk away, they'll walk away.'"

Bob Dylan, "The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carrol"
"And he spoke through his cloak, most deep and distinguished,
And handed out strongly, for penalty and repentance,
William Zanzinger with a six-month sentence.
Oh, but you who philosophize disgrace and criticize all fears,
Bury the rag deep in your face
For now's the time for your tears."

As a vocalist, lyrics tend to be one of the first things I notice and I love a song with really clever or thought provoking lyrics. One of my favorite lines is from 10,000 Motherf***ers (That'll Do) by Jason Mraz: "In the arms of a city that holds no trace for the face, or space for you and me; go make a life, not a living, singing glory, glory hallelujah, yeah that'll do" That just struck me the first time i heard it it's so simple, but i think it's a great thought. Go make a life, not a living. I see it as making sure you live your life and don't just go through the motions, etc.

There are also quite a few lines that i love from Semisonic, my top 2 being: "And you tell yourself what you want to hear, cause you have to believe, "This'll be my year."" and "you said you had somebody better to become. Who's stopping you?" The second one makes a little more sense in context with the rest of the song, but the premise is really don't blame other people for your shortcomings, or make excuses. They both just ring true for me in that we all make new years resolutions and try to be better people, but sometimes we make excuses and "who's stopping you?" is a reminder, at least for me, to just do whatever it is I wanted to do.

I've also been listening to Continuum by John Mayer a lot lately and most of the songs on that album have really good lyrics and great music as well. My favorites are Slow Dancing in a Burning Room and Dreaming with a Broken Heart. Belief also gives you something to think about.

Basically, the songs I like best are the ones that I can relate to the most or that really get the message across so that even if I haven't experienced what the artist is talking about, I still understand where they are coming from.

Anyway, although i could probably write 10 more pages on the topic, i'll leave it at that for now. Thanks for posing the question and giving your thoughts and favorites. :)

almost any lyrics written by ani difranco: original but everyday imagery and emotion that pretty much everyone can relate to; new ways of describing ordinary things; rhyming without sounding forced; clever double entendres and metaphors; the precisely perfect way to say whatever it is that needs to be said. to wit:

"the coffee is just water dressed in brown"

"i don't need anyone to hold me, i can hold my own...i sing sometimes for the war that i fight, 'cause every tool is a weapon if you hold it right."

"i am writing graffiti on your body, i am drawing the story of how hard we try"

"two-thirty in the morning and my gas tank will be empty soon, neon sign on the horizon rubbing elbows with the moon...in the back room there's a lamp that hangs over the pool table ...there's a changing constellation of balls as we are playing, i see orion and say nothing..."

"sleep-walking through the all-night drugstore, baptized in fluorescent light, i found religion in the greeting card aisle, and now i know hallmark was right"

i could go on all day...but i think i'll just go listen to some ani instead.

Hello from Finland:)
I'd like to say that Pandora is the next big thing since Internet...heh

Hmm, lyrics, I really like "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" by The Beatles.

Joan was quizzical; studied pataphysical
Science in the home.
Late nights all alone with a test tube.
Oh, oh, oh, oh.

Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine,
Calls her on the phone.
"Can I take you out to the pictures,
Joa, oa, oa, oan?"

But as she's getting ready to go,
A knock comes on the door.

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Came down upon her head.
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that she was dead.

Back in school again Maxwell plays the fool again.
Teacher gets annoyed.
Wishing to avoid and unpleasant
Sce, e, e, ene,

She tells Max to stay when the class has gone away,
So he waits behind
Writing fifty times "I must not be
So, o, o, o.."

But when she turns her back on the boy,
He creeps up from behind.

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Came down upon her head.
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that she was dead.

P. C. Thirty-one said, "We caught a dirty one."
Maxwell stands alone
Painting testimonial pictures.
Oh, oh, oh, oh.

Rose and Valerie, screaming from the gallery
Say he must go free
(Maxwell must go free)
The judge does not agree and he tells them
So, o, o, o.

But as the words are leaving his lips,
A noise comes from behind.

Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Came down upon his head.
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer
Made sure that he was dead.

Whoa, oh, oh, oh.
Silver hammer man.

thanks a lot...

To me the vocals are another instrument, to be judged equally with the rest of the sounds. It's hard to treat lyrics as an equal part, though, because there's more than one thing happening. We hear both language and a melody, and different parts of the brain are stimulated.

The part of my brain that cares about music will hear how well the vocalist is using his instrument, and like it or not based on that. I recieve-understand-judge the ideas, vocabulary, and syntax on a copletely different level. Thus the meaning of the lyrics, sometimes even the words used, are acceptable or not depending on my political, social, or religious views.

For whatever reason, I can't turn my left-brain dissection of lyrical content off in order to enjoy a song I would normally enjoy—and sometimes I want to, badly. For instance, I recently bought "Subterranea" by IQ after hearing a few songs from it on Pandora. When I got it I popped it in, and loved it. Until somewhere in the first half of the cd the singer dropped the F-bomb. I thought I misheard it, so I dug out the lyrics to be sure—I was, and it ruined the whole album for me. One little word, that I hear all day at work. Silly isn't it?

On another note: I wonder if the favorite lyrics posted here are loved for themselves, or for where they come in the song, or the melodies, or the passion with which they were sung.

I suppose I have favorite lyrics, though. First that comes to mind would be Harry Chapin's "14,000 Pounds of Bananas", or "Gold And Silver" by Stavesacre (fresh on my mind 'cause I just heard it). But really, to pare down a favorite lyric would be like trying to decide which grain of sugar tasted sweetest.

On the intellectual side, Elvis Costello:

"The truth can't hurt you, it's just like the dark.
It scares you witless, but in time you see things clear and stark."

That's a couplet for the ages. Up there with Catullus and all the great ancient poets. Talk about universal truth.

And on the purely emotional side, Mitchell Parish (music by Hoagy Carmichael):

"Sometimes I wonder why I spend
The lonely nights
Dreaming of a song
That melody haunts my reverie
And I am once again with you
When our love was new
And each kiss an inspiration
Ah, but that was long ago
Now my consolation
Is in the stardust of a song"

Something about the way those words hang on that melody just slays me. I can't begin to describe why those words work so well, and it's really just in the context of that melody that they work. Printed on the page, they don't carry much weight at all.

A few favorites (and I'll include more country, because that's what I'm listening to and writing these days, but there are great lyrics in every genre with lyrics...

THE SONG REMEMBERS WHEN (Hugh Prestwood, recorded by Trisha Yearwood)

I was standing at the counter
I was waiting for the change
When I heard that old familiar music start
It was like a lighted match
Had been tossed into my soul
It was like a dam had broken in my heart

After taking every detour
Getting lost and losing track
So that even if I wanted
I could not find my way back
After driving out the memory
Of the way things might have been
After I'd forgotten all about us
The song remembers when

We were rolling through the Rockies
We were up above the clouds
When a station out of Jackson played that song
And it seemed to fit the moment
And the moment seemed to freeze
When we turned the music up and sang along

And there was a God in Heaven
And the world made perfect sense
We were young and were in love
And we were easy to convince
We were headed straight for Eden
It was just around the bend
And though I have forgotten all about it
The song remembers when

I guess something must have happened
And we must have said goodbye
And my heart must have been broken
Though I can't recall just why
The song remembers when

Well, for all the miles between us
And for all the time that's passed
You would think I haven't gotten very far
And I hope my hasty heart
Will forgive me just this once
If I stop to wonder how on Earth you are

But that's just a lot of water
Underneath a bridge I burned
And there's no use in backtracking
Around corners I have turned
Still I guess some things we bury
Are just bound to rise again
For even if the whole world has forgotten

The song remembers when
Yeah, and even if the whole world has forgotten
The song remembers when

The best lyrics often capture an emotional moment that just can't be described with the same power by words alone. This one is also really singable.
But most of all, the emotional intensity rises, and falls, and rises again...like the hills...and the melody...and the heart of the singer.

LUSH LIFE
(Billy Strayhorn)

I used to visit all the very gay places
Those come what may places
Where one relaxes on the axis of the wheel of life
To get the feel of life...
From jazz and cocktails.

The girls I knew had sad and sullen gray faces
With distingue traces [pronounced "distin-gay"]
That used to be there you could see where theyd been washed away
By too many through the day...
Twelve o'clock tales.

Then you came along with your siren of song
To tempt me to madness!
I thought for a while that your poignant smile was tinged with the sadness
Of a great love for me.

Ah yes! I was wrong...
Again,
I was wrong.

Life is lonely again,
And only last year everything seemed so sure.
Now life is awful again,
A troughful of hearts could only be a bore.
A week in paris will ease the bite of it,
All I care is to smile in spite of it.

Ill forget you, I will
While yet you are still burning inside my brain.
Romance is mush,
Stifling those who strive.
Ill live a lush life in some small dive...
And there Ill be, while I rot
With the rest of those whose lives are lonely, too..

I've got a thing for lost romance...this is a CLASSIC jazz song (Queen Latifah did a great job with it in "LIVING OUT LOUD"). I love the daring words ("romance is mush, stifling those who strive") and the SOUND of the words (Just say "Where one relaxes on the axis of the wheel of life to get the feel of life...
From jazz and cocktails.")

Newer songs I like?

"I Don't Wanna Be" by Gavin DeGraw is so passionate, mixes powerful metaphors with a confessional, gutsy truth...and uses consonants as
syncopated percussion.

"Daughters" by John Mayer leads the listener from what sounds like just another song about a relationship to something that carries a moral...without being preachy. Real economy of words, uses imperfect rhymes well.

There are a lot of very funny songs in country music,eg Brad Paisley's "Alcohol" and "Celebrity" ("When you're a celebrity, it's "Adios, reality." /You can act just like a fool, people think you're cool, just because you're on TV.) The following is one of my favorites.

B.F.D.

Don Henry / Craig Carothers

It ain't his fault that she went AWOL
'Cause he tried everything from A to Z
Now it's J & B, M&M's and KFC
Trying hard to make himself believe

CHORUS
It ain't no BFD, he's got his CMT
No S-E-X but that's OK
At least he ain't SOB like that PHD
Who took his X and ran off to L.A.

She liked CNN, made fun of his TNN
Always called it E-I-E-I-O
Now their love is R.I.P., but at least he's F-R-E…E
And he ain't cryin' on his P-I-L-L-O

(chorus)

BRIDGE
So one night he ordered pizza
For some R&R with the NFL
When a delivery girl named Lisa
Stole his heart when she rang his bell

Now they're in L-U-V and it's XTC
No S-E-X (yet) but that's A-OK
Cause he feels like a VIP with all of her TLC
And ASAP she'll be his fiancé
And that's a BFD in a real good way
Copyright © Warner-Tamerlane Publishing Corp (BMI) / Irving Music, Inc. / Two
Bagger Music (BMI)

But then there are songs that change the world...(I >like< "Change the World" BTW).

This song by Steve Seskin and Allen Shamblin was a country hit, but when Peter Yarrow of Peter Paul and Mary heard it...it became the start of an organization, Operation Respect, fighting bullying in the schools, with presentations now to over 40,000 teachers.

I'm a little boy with glasses
The one they call the geek
A little girl who never smiles
'Cause I've got braces on my teeth
And I know how it feels
To cry myself to sleep

I'm that kid on every playground
Who's always chosen last
A single teenage mother
Tryin' to overcome my past
You don't have to be my friend
But is it too much to ask

Don't laugh at me
Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings
Don't laugh at me

I'm the cripple on the corner
You've passed me on the street
And I wouldn't be out here beggin'
If I had enough to eat
And don't think I don't notice
That our eyes never meet

I lost my wife and little boy when
Someone cross that yellow line
The day we laid them in the ground
Is the day I lost my mind
And right now I'm down to holdin'
This little cardboard sign...so

Don't laugh at me
Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings
Don't laugh at me

I'm fat, I'm thin, I'm short, I'm tall
I'm deaf, I'm blind, hey, aren't we all

Don't laugh at me
Don't call me names
Don't get your pleasure from my pain
In God's eyes we're all the same
Someday we'll all have perfect wings
Don't laugh at me

The thing is...when songs change the world...it's the LYRICS that make that happen. Yes, riding on the melody.

But it's the lyrics that change the world.

Great comments from everyone so far... I like the observation that in most cases the lyrics are registering both as text and also as music, stimulating multiple parts of our brains.

I generally prefer heavy, poetic lyrics, of the Townes Van Zandt / Leonard Cohen variety. For me, metaphor, simile, allegory and the other classic literary devices still have a lot of power.

Some writers succeed in achieving a good balance between heavy words and heavy music: Joni Mitchell would be perhaps the ultimate example for me.

But other writers can make lyrics work, even though they seem very weak on the page.

Brian Wilson's music seems to elevate the words to his songs (or maybe the two are just so perfectly matched that it's no longer a question of literature, but simply one of communication). Take one of my favorite examples (from God Only Knows):

I may not always love you
as long as there are stars above you
you never need to doubt it
I'll make you so sure about it

On the page, I would say that those words are very mundane: predictable rhymes, not much detail or sensory information, etc... but the structure of the melody, and the way they set up that last line, it's perfect. An absolutely un-improvable piece of music.

So I guess the upshot of this for me is that as time goes on, and as I listen to more and more songs, I am increasingly disinclined to try to separate the words from their musical context.

An obvious perspective, perhaps, but one that's taken me years to get to...

cheers,
mz

MZ, you're so right, in my opinion. You just can't separate lyrics and music, judge them separately.

No matter how powerful the concept or images or the emotion in the words might be...if it doesn't SING well...if the powerful point in the music isn't matched by a powerful point in the lyric...it's no good.

No matter how well-crafted and sumptuous the materials, a one-legged pair of pants on a two-legged man...is ugly. Fit matters.

Sometimes a powerful melody can carry a weak lyric, or vice versa. However, a simple line can be powerfully strong when used at the perfect time. (Same thing: how that person we crave doesn't have to say anything more original than "I love you" to make us go happy-crazy...)

Lyrics and melody have got to FIT. Lyrics should feel good and sound good in the mouth of the singer.

Doesn't mean they need to be "poetic." Sometimes it's enough to have the raw sound of the consonants and vowels sound great. "Louie Louie" (and anything Michael McDonald sings) might be hard to understand, but the sound rocks, so the song works.

Non sequitur: bluebirdcafe.com sells recordings of some of the best songwriters in the country. Lately I've been listening much more to writers. A lot of this stuff doesn't get much promotion, but there's some brilliance. Check out Darrell Scott and Don Henry.

Thanks for asking this question!!

thanks ruth -

I generally agree with your points.

but if we say that any words that "sing well" and that fit the music are good lyrics, then we accidentally remove literary value entirely, and we put the great lyricists on the same level as the rest. it is very possible for a singer to sing a cliche very convincingly. that doesn't mean it's a good lyric, though, does it?

what I'm thinking is that you can't simultaneously say that Leonard Cohen is a better lyricist than a one-hit wonder pop star from 1983; while also saying that the only thing that matters with lyrics is that they dovetail well with the song.

on some level, the content, and the literary excellence do register. in fact, those may be the most important things for me.

and to take it a bit further, some great lyrics don't sing particularly well. some of my favorite lyric writers sometimes choose to use relatively awkward phrasing (vic chesnutt does that sometimes, for example).

plus, there's something that hits me wrong about great sounding lyrics that say nothing at all. lots of hit songs have these kinds of words, and I sometimes wonder if they actually damage the meaning of language by steamrolling syntax and meaning with pure intoxicating pop beauty. I don't know...

as for the bluebird, I've played there (in fact I wore a Bluebird shirt to work yesterday!). it's an incredible place - thanks for mentioning it.

best,
mz

Michael,
glad I could kick off the discussion with a vague comment, but really, I have true belief that lyrics are just music too. To take the obvious example.....the best thing about zeppelin is that the lyrics are completely irrevelent..arent they? In fact I would argue (and boy can I argue) that some musical answers that page gives to plant after his nonsensical lyric shouting actually 'says it better" than the silly words that proceed it. Example:the last song on the last album (so sad).."I'm gonna crawl"...(yes, the honeydrippers are like so there already)....yeah yeah yeah, plant lays it down in the language we all inherently know...but thats lingue versus parole in terms of linguistics...page's answer to plant REALLY is the lyric. NO?

debra -

it's a very interesting idea to say that the lyric is just more music, and that a jimmy page guitar lick is actually a lyric. it reminds me of a test theory of mine that says: all sounds are created equal.

in physics (as far as I understand it, which isn't far at all) every sound is a series of waves of higher and lower air pressure. by that measure, the lyrics and the guitars and everything else in a song, and in fact every other sound around you that is not "part of the song," are all merging and intermingling, and they are all equally physical and without meaning.

I've thought about this some, and I've come to think that this idea is one of those strange observations that's both true and meaningless. I'm not sure I can go into why now, but maybe in another post...

my feeling is that it's stretching the word "lyric" too far to say it includes things that aren't words. I agree that the music can function very well in a call and response sort of way, and almost be equal to the lyric, but for me, the lyrics are the words...

semantically,
mz

I'm kinda like that joke about the minister that says "You're right" to both parties of a warring couple, and then, when his wife asks him, "You couldn't possibly have agreed with both of them...you're a fool!"...he says to her, "You're right."

But everybody who wrote above is right.

1. Lyrics are sound...consonants are percussion, vowels are wind instruments, silence is.

2. Singability can matter.

3. Literal meaning can matter. Connotation of the words, phrases or whole sentences can matter. Metaphorical meaning can matter. The mood evoked can matter. What's LEFT OUT, NOT SAID in a lyric can even matter. What the lyric refers to indirectly can matter. The relationship of those words, that sentiment, that story to other songs, other things in the world can matter.

4. Some lyrics work on a lot of levels (concrete, abstract, word sound, etc.). Some don't work on any level. Some lyrics are just a part for the singer to sing, a near-random vehicle for their sound.

Re the Zeppelin thing: I absolutely think some instrumentalists can communicate with each other, and with the listener. I know this both as a listener and as a player. The piece of music I've listened to most (willingly) in the last year is "Sunday Driver" by an acoustic guitar duo, Duology. Somehow it SAYS volumes to me every time I hear it. BUT...the fact that an instrumental artist, like a visual artist, can express something without using words doesn't negate the power that many lyrics DO have. Human beings have been singers of words since words began, and there is much that words can do that melody alone cannot.

And there were bands from the Zep era that coupled their instrumental force with meatier lyrics than some of theirs.

As for lyrics that are pure delicious sound, I have just one thing to say. Angular banjos.

Go Steely Dan.

Although the lyrics to "Stairway" is still big fun to say/sing and muse about...it was written in definitely the same Steely Dan-ish spirit of lyric writing, an emotional trip conveying SOMETHING, but just not laying itself out in absolute conversational clarity, like Nashville publishers demand.

Songwriters have different goals for their songs. Some songs are written for careful listening and deconstruction. Others are written as soundtrack to drugs, sex, rock & roll, meant to blow your fuses with lead guitar and maniac vocals.

It's all music, all good to somebody.

Like Pandora.

Oh...re great but awkward-sounding lyrics...

To me, great lyrics are not necessarily the ones that sing the most EASILY. A lot of times you don't want something that's slippery and Broadway sounding. The roughness of a Tom Waits line is part of its beauty...it's like distortion on guitar.

By singability, I just mean a lyric that doesn't get in the singer's way when he's trying to express the song. And also, sometimes, there are some words that just SOUND great, that linger in the listeners' ears and that they love to repeat.

Take the use of rhyme. A friend who's written pop hits and a Broadway show says that on Broadway, you can write about any subject, eg, Urinetown, but if you don't use PERFECT rhymes, they'll kill you. On the other hand, in Nashville, your subject is in a very narrow framework, but rhymes can be a lot freer, or almost nonexistent.

Regarding simple lyrics. The use of familiar words, even cliches, in a non-trite way is the genius in a lot of the songs we love best.

It boils down to...what works.

(Yeah, I love the Bluebird. What's played there is somewhat different than what survives to mainstream country radio. You're apt to hear some of the most powerful deep writing there is anywhere. I've been invited to play in another round there, this time inviting the other three writers myself, and it's a daunting but exciting prospect. And yet it's easily the best listening room I've ever been in. A liquor-serving club with a "Shhh!" sign on every table and a staff that enforces that policy! Could a writer ask for better?!)

Since they haven't been offered up yet I'd throw in the brainy lyrics of Rush drummer Neil Peart.

One favorite, a sample from "The Weapon"

Can any part of life --- be larger than life?
Even love must be limited by time
And those who push us down that they might climb ---
Is any killer worth more than his crime?

Like a steely blade in a silken sheath
We don't see what they're made of
They shout about love, but when push comes to shove
They live for the things they're afraid of

And the knowledge that they fear
Is a weapon to be used against them...

Thanks for the great site guys.
Be well,
Steve

Wow, awesome discussion, so many things to think about. I like the comment about music as a response to lyrics and just music speaking in general. This is something that is hugely important in jazz. For me some of the best jazz comes from musicians using their instruments to communicate with each other.
Ok, back to lyrics, i'm with Phil and MZ in that it's extremely difficult for me to separate lyrics from the music and even more so from the performance. The best songs with the wrong amount of energy or a voice that can't handle the music can be awful, just look at some of the kids on american idol. My point is that for me, the whole package has to be there or I may not even hear the meaning, or if i do i can find myself disappointed that it didn't come across as strong as it should have. In regards to MZ's pnysics comment, I think the way we experience music is also really important, like the environment in which we hear a song for the first time can play a pretty large role in our opinion of it.

But you can't use the argument that the whole package is important as justification for NOT analyzing the lyrics. Otherwise, in that context, it doesn't make sense to analyze the MUSIC either.

It's a left and right shoe thing. Maybe one genre is more left or right-footed (importance of lyrics vs. music), but they still need two feet to walk.

Otherwise you are virtually analyzing karaoke tracks with this instrument making sounds. They're not sounds. They're words.

And bad performance sucks. In all genres. And bad product sucks. In all genres. And we all bring along our own screenplay to go along with the music that makes up the soundtracks of our lives, full of associations (which explains why everybody goes nuts over a particularly dopey song that was "OUR" song at least once per lifetime).

But none of that is justification for not looking at lyrics as a crucial part of song.

(In my opinion.)

Sorry, i would never say to not think of lyrics as a crucial part of the song. That's not what i meant at all. I only meant that for the most part the music has to be at least decent for me to really pay attention to the lyrics. I mean if a song sucks, even if the lyrics are great by themselves, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Sure, I may think that it's a good concept, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'll want to listen to it again.
I analyze lyrics all the time as well as music and both are extremely important. And the point about jazz is just that music can communicate without lyrics as well, that's all. It was not meant to take away from the importance of good lyrics in any way. And at the other end, the connection to the human voice is also a huge factor and probably one of the main reasons the majority of popular music is dominated by vocals.

As a well done example of the whole package thing, take John Mayer's Slow Dancing in a Burning Room.

It's not a silly little moment
It's not the storm before the calm
This is the deep and dying breath of
This love we've been working on

Can't seem to hold you like I want to
So I can feel you in my arms
Nobody's gonna come and save you
We pulled too many false alarms

We're going down
And you can see it too
We're going down
And you know that we're doomed
My dear, we're slow dancing in a burning room

I was the one you always dreamed of
You were the one I tried to draw
How dare you say it's nothing to me
Baby, you're the only light I ever saw

I'll make the most of all the sadness
You'll be a bitch because you can
You try to hit me just to hurt me
So you leave me feeling dirty
Because you can't understand

We're going down
And you can see it too
We're going down
And you know that we're doomed
My dear, we're slow dancing in a burning room

Go cry about it, why don't you?
My dear, we're slow dancing in a burning room

Don't you think we oughta know by now?
Don't you think we shoulda learned somehow?

Really good lyrics (in my opinion), but the guitars, especially, just give it that much more.

And while we're on the subject, using the same lyrics with a different melody or voice even can completely change the meaning and feel of the song. I'm thinking of B*****s Ain't S**t originally done by Dr. Dre and Snoop then covered by Ben Folds. What was a semi-serious rap tune, becomes an overly melodic farce. But then Weird Al does the opposite all the time. So changing either can completely change the meaning of a song.
So can we analyze lyrics? Absolutely, there's no reason not to, I certainly enjoy it. But ultimately, our reactions to songs come from a variety of factors, and why not acknowledge that. :)

I'm going to take a different tack: great lyrics from not-great songs. My favorite, from the otherwise forgettable country song "I Don't", representing the little-explored intersection of religious music and kiss-off songs:

You say I should stay with you
That Jesus forgives you
You pray I will, but I won't
The difference is
Jesus loves you, I don't

wow...I just heard "Burning Room" this week, and listened to it over and over. Great lyric. And Danielle Peck's "I Won't" knocked me out when I heard it, more like an R&B torchsong gut-punch, although I think the "Jesus forgives you, I don't" had been written by someone well-known before. The holy kiss-off!

Totally agree re so many factors influencing reaction. Including comfort of seat when listening or who's humming it in your ear while slow dancing, as well as what creepy person likes the song and what felony a band member was found guilty of.

Something on lyrics and a question re QUALITY

Final? thoughts on lyrics mattering bigtime:
Bob Dylan
Bruce Springsteen
Joni Mitchell

and rap...I mean, you can't be segmenting rap based on the melody...so how can you make distinctions without considering the content of the words?

Another thought. There are plenty of Americana and alt-rock artists who sound SO similar to one another. The big distinction to me is that some write great lyrics with a particular character to them...that doesn't matter in how you program?

I'm also really curious what role "quality" has in Pandora. Given that you listen to heaps of music and not everything makes the initial cut to be included on your playlists...who determines the criteria for "quality"? What standard is it based on, and is it by genre?

And then once you've decided to include something...is that the last time quality is a factor in grouping songs?

If you include songs on the Billboard Top 10, even if they are truly awful, how do you justify NOT including everything else that's at least THAT good?

Just curious.

Or maybe I'm thinking, hm, I can point to at least some songs mine are better than...:-)

thanks again everyone for all the comments and cool ideas.

interesting observation on great lyrics from bad songs, ashley.

as for the role quality plays in pandora, we strive to be as quality-oriented as we can. the way we justify including everything on the big charts regardless of quality is that from the historical perspective, hit songs are songs that exist more or less as facts in the cultural landscape.

think of something like "who let the dogs out" or the bears' "super bowl shuffle" (I'm not sure if we have that or not, but I'll check). those songs may not be great songs, but wouldn't you agree that they belong in our collection?

for music that is registering on the public's consciousness in a large way (i.e., the billboard charts), we don't need to make a quality evaluation.

and it turns out that those songs are also the points of entry into discovering lesser-known songs and artists, and so they belong in the collection from that perspective, too.

as for evaluating the quality of unknown music, as the comments above prove, it's not a simple task. the questions we hold in mind as we listen to submission are things like:

would this song be a satisfying song to discover?
would this song be the worst song on a station of similar music? would it be the best?
would it raise or lower the level of quality on a playlist of musically similar works?
has this artist earned a place in our collection based on a solid niche fan base?

there are many others of course. it's an inexact thing, and within that, we strive to include as much quality music as we can.

cheers,
mz

Oh, I think that Pandora's including the charting or really popular songs as a lead-in to similar but worthy-of-being-discovered songs is a terrific service to all concerned.

Still, without considering the content of lyrics in country or folk songs, it's like judging the quality of and organizing cars based on paint colors.

Color's a factor, but...

Truth is, though, Pandora's still better than all the alternatives!

A flip of the dial is this good!

See the stone set in your eyes
See the thorn twist in your side
And I wait for you

=>

Go lightly from the ledge babe
Go lightly on the ground

=>

I'm dancing barefoot
Heading for a spill
Some strange music
Drags me in
Makes me come off, like some Heroin/e

=>

She runs through the streets
With her eyes painted red
Under black belly of cloud in the rain
In through a doorway she brings me
White gold and pearls stolen from the sea
She is raging
She is raging
And the storm blows up in her eyes
She will...

=>

Just like Sister Ray said
I'm searching for my mainline
I couldn't hit it sideways
I couldn't hit it sideways
just like .... Sister Ray says

=>

rub my nose in icing sugar
smooth as when this cold and deadly blade
kisses the fruit so soft and gently
beating under your skin

=>

My baby's so vain, she is
almost a mirror
and the
sound of her name sends a
another shiver down my spine

=>

Our house, in the middle of our street
Our house, in the middle of our
Something tells you that you've got to move
away from it

=>

Under the Milkyway tonight

=>

Under blue moon I saw you
So soon you'll take me
Up in your arms
Too late to beg you or cancel it
Though I know it must be the killing time
Unwillingly mine

=>

Buffalo and Bison

=>

The sun is high up in the sky and I'm in my car
Drifting down into the abattoir
Do you see what I see, dear?

<=

Ballyhoo and Bedbugs
Bedbugs and Ballyhoo

(oops! It's almost this good!)

Thanks

PaulBobPattiPaulLouRobertNickSteveSteveIanIanNickIan

Soundgarden:

"I'm raining icepicks on your steel shore."

Just one of many great lyrics from the band.