Thanks for the excellent 'cast, gentlemen!
I especially loved the comparisons of the same song in two different time signatures.
I do love me an odd meter.

I once got asked out on a date, by a music nerd of course, when he heard me yell to my friend at a show, "Oh cool, this song's in 7/8!"
The band was Brave Combo, the town, Austin.

You talk about 3/4 time as "waltz time" but don't play a good 3/4 time one could comfortably waltz to. The last beat should be a bit longer like in "I'll Be" by the Goo Goo Dolls.

Quick quick slow, quick quick slow, quick quick slow . . . .

Often pop uses of 3/4 time sound quite awkward to me, but that's fine. I figure it is kind of a well meaning token effort, like the obligatory gospel song on an otherwise lyin' cheatin' stealin' country album.

Unfortunately I can't listen to the radio from pandora anymore since I'm from the Netherlands, but I still come to this site to listen to the podcasts.

Once again very interesting, I learn a bit more about music every two weeks. One thing different this week that I'm wondering about, until now the examples played in the podcasts never were well known songs and now they are.
I think these examples make the podcasts even better, so good job on that. Have you worked out a copyright problem?

Also I'd like to mention the band Tool, they do some really interesting things with odd-metered measures and even change these within a song.

Hi, Bart -

Tool, absolutely, makes some interesting odd-metered phrases seem natural in their music. There was a Tool song I wanted to link to, but the lyrics had profanity so the audio button wouldn't work. Alas.

As for playing recognizable songs, we aren't playing the melodies or singing words in these examples, so hopefully we're 'alluding to' rather than quoting. (That said, if this episode disappears all of a sudden, you'll know why.)

And Edith -

Definitely, I agree with you that most rock waltzes aren't very danceable. I think it is more of a gesture than an attempt to bring dancing, as it was in earlier, more formal styles. Also, good call on recommending "I'll Be."

Lucia -

Ha! So now we know, if ever a single friend is visiting Austin, that music lovers there find metrical savvy to be an aphrodesiac. Love that.

Kevin -- for a good Tool song showing different time signatures that doesn't have any profanity, check out "Schism". The Wikipedia description has it changing time signatures 47 times over the course of the song: "5/4, 6/4, 3/8, 13/8, 10/8, 6/4, 3/8, 13/8, 10/8, 6/4, 11/8, 6/4, 3/8, 13/8, 11/8, 7/4, 12/8 and 15/8 (alternating 12 times), 4/4, 2/4, 4/4, 9/8, 10/8, 3/8, 13/8, 10/8, 9/8, 13/8, 9/8 and 5/8 (alternating 4 times), 9/8, 6/8, 6/4, and finally 4/4".

As usual, fantastic podcast (I have been a listener since the beginning). I am in my first year of teaching music at an elementary school, and I wanted to let Kevin and Pandora know that listening to these podcasts has revolutionized the way I teach music! The Pandora podcasts have given clear-cut explanations that even a beginning music student can understand. The simple articulation of complex music subjects has helped me find a way to help students look deeper into music...almost any eight-year-old student knows what kind of music he/she likes, but at first I had found none of them that could say WHY he/she liked it! Listening to Pandora podcasts have helped me find a way to train my young students to think critically and explore a whole new side of music they have not yet discovered. Bravo, Pandora!

I teach drums and play in a band called Trio Subtonic, which plays alot of original odd-time stuff that comes about not from thinking about how to play odd-time, but instead letting a melody breathe in a space that it seems to fit in. interpreting it to make it feel like 4 or 3 is the key, just like music should come not from the head primarily, unless you want the audience to receive it only in their heads. after all, we live enough inside our heads in this country.
!!thanks guys for your insightful lesson!!

Good call on "Schism," Sweth -- we actually had Jeff playing an excerpt from "Schism" in the original recording session, but didn't include it in the episode, as it was complex to the point of not actually demonstrating anything clearly. But that song is a great example of mutating meter.

Brian: I'm so happy to hear that!! Thanks for listening, and I hope we can continue to spark some ideas for teaching your students. Listening with a bit of critical thought at hand -- active listening -- can make such a dramatic difference in expanding one's musical universe. Take care, and good luck with your students.

Jesse: Agreed, absolutely. Letting the melody fill whatever space it wants to fill, and letting the phrase fall where it wants to fall regardless of customary measure breaks... definitely the way to make odd metrical writing FEEL natural and not cerebral.

Kevin:

Loved the podcast. Another great innovator in odd meter who wasn't a rock musician was trumpeter Don Ellis. His jazz big band hardly ever played in common time.

There's also (and I toot) Get Closer (Carroll--Cherry Lane Music) recorded by Linda Ronstadt.

7/4---really 4+3/7

i like the jesus christ superstar soundtrack which boasts many odd time meter and changes such as everythings alright.i also know that chicago used to have smooth transitions in their early stuff odd meter was thrown out when they came into the ballad era but got the good old days when they actually played music

Hey Kevin, this is the 3rd lesson i can't listen to and i don't know what's up, i'm using a library computer but all the other lessons i could hear any ideas on what to do or not do?? thanks ssrb

Hey, awesome show - I've been wanting to hear a podcast about meter for a while now. I was a bit suprised that you guys didnt mention progressive more than you did, seeing as how it places so much emphasis on unusual meter as a genre. Rush did some pretty interesting Prog rock songs with unusual meter, for example, "Jacob's Ladder" is done with a consistanly shifing time signature.

Jeff -- Don Ellis, great listening suggestion. Fantastic big-band, that one.

Jon -- please toot away! 'Tis an honor to have a songwriter of your distinction joining us here. If you didn't get that from Jon's message, he wrote the song "Get Closer," which is indeed in 7/4.

SS/R -- I sent you a message... not sure what to suggest. Our support folks (pandora-support@pandora.com) should be able to help.

Bryce -- I've been linking so many progressive artists in other episodes (Synthesis for one), that I under-represented a bit, particularly considering how much interesting metrical play happens in Rush, Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, etc. More on progressive artists later; I'm a huge fan of prog, personally.

Thanks for the special work and information! notem6715

It's working great now. Loved waltz, always loved 3/4 time prob cuz of my love affair with blues music, and everybody hurts l2/8 really loved that too, and also found GD l0/8 very interesting always enjoy unique things too. Really enjoyed, oh and if i like everybody hurts so much can you think of a few other songs or groups that play that rhythm I might Enjoy?? Take care. ssrb

Hi, SSRB,

If you really like Everybody Hurts and the 12/8 feel, I'd recommend trying some of the slower doo-wop songs from the '50s. That arpeggiated guitar and slow feel really feels like that style to me.

There's a compilation called "Doo Wop Is For Slow Dancin'" that includes songs like these:

Beating Of My Heart, The - The Charmers
Baby, It's You - The Spaniels
United - The Love Notes
Tell The World - The Dells
Love Call - The Ebonaires
Missing You - The Starlites
Dear Lord - The Continentals
Moonglow You Know - The Videos
Angel - The Gay Knights
Congratulations - The Turbans
Lost Love - The Superiors
Lorraine - The Harmonaires
My Diane - The Charts
My Heart Is Sad - The Channels
Oh Starlight - The Quinns
Please Tell The Angels - Lewis Lymon & The Teenchords
Lovers Prayer - The Clickettes
Lonely Room - Lee Andrews & The Hearts
Lullabye Of Bells - The Deltaires
I Found Out Too Late - Jackie & The Starlites

Unless this is already on the site somewhere, I'd love to see a more thorough analysis of multimeters and superimposed polyrhythms.

I'm thinking along the lines of Steve Reich's "Music For Eighteen Musicians" and Peter Gabriel's "The Heat" (From Rhythm Of The Heat) on his "Birdy" album.

This musical device has a powerful psychoacoustic effect, and I'm sure if=t would be of great interest to your listeners!

Keep up the splendid, splendid work.

guys luv u lot,is unfortunate 4 us south african cause we wont have 2 listen 2 pandora anymore.i enjoy everything u do on da show.i would like u 2 play me cellion Dion(IF that what it takes)dedicating 2 any1 who is in a relationship.

Hi, Emlyn --

I love multimeters, and I love superimposed polyrhythms. I'm also way into Steve Reich and Peter Gabriel.

We are working our way toward those concepts, but haven't gotten there yet. Stay tuned, and we will arrive in that territory at some point. Thanks for listening.

Hi Kevin,
1st off I wanted to Thank you for answering my original question about 6/8 in Building a song from the ground up.. I have a few more questions though!! lol.. I understand now what u mean about the count as opposed to 4/4 now,(I think! lol) thank you.. I was wondering though if I compose something in 4/4 at 98 bpm's because of the count difference what bpm would feel similar in 6/8? When I set my metronome to 98 bpm's in 6/8 I have a hard time keeping up! lol.. Since I'm not used to it, what would be a good slower tempo to start with to learn?Are there any drum cd's I could get with odd meters that I could listen to get a better feel for all the different meters? Or even songs with stripped down parts where I could study the drums more to get a better feel for the different meters? Oh and I'm glad I clicked on the link to your site so I know which Drum video to avoid!! lol.. Glad I watched the comments video.. lol..

If you write something in 4/4 at 98 bpm, then you are hearing 196 eighth notes in each minute (98 x 2). So, if you wanted to find a 6/8 feel where the eighth notes had the same length (ONE-two-three-TWO-two-three), then you would set your metronome to 63 (196/3). That way, your duple feel becomes a triplet feel. That's an example of metric modulation, which is next week's topic, coincidentally.

Starting with a slower tempo is always a smart idea, as you suggest. I'd recommend starting with an excruciatingly slow tempo; much much slower than you would ever perform it live, really grindingly slow. That way you can make sure that you're internalizing those beats correctly the first time.

I don't know of drum CDs to recommend, but perhaps other listeners have had experience with CDs that they would like to share with us...

Hi Kevin,
I don't think I can say thank you enough times to explain how much u have helped me in understanding time signature and meter. I can't wait till next week's show!!! Seriously, I feel like a kid again!! I've learned soo much from u and the different musicians on the show.. Thanks again, I really appreciate u breaking down the beats per minute comparison for me.. I know your really busy with the show, your band, personal life,etc.. I was wondering though if u had a myspace page or some way to contact u or is it better to just ask questions on the comment page of each show?

Does anyone know any 3/2 songs that i could use as a "modern" song to teach a folk dance to. I am musically retarded so i have know idea what it all means but the traditional music used for the dance is 3/2 so i figured if that other music with this signature would work right? can someone please help. Thanks

Hey I have a question...while playing Guitar Hero 3 I've always noticed that the song "Before I Forget" by Slipknot has kind of an odd time, especially in the beginning. Is it 7/4? Please email me if you know

hey guys
i just wanted to say
your gay
in the cool way

This podcast was really interesting, and this show is really good. Thank you!

But about, time signatures, I always wonder when I hear certain songs if they are in 3/4 or 6/8, I don't really understand the difference. I thought that Norwegian Wood was in 6/8 (you can count |1-2-3--2-2-3|1-2-3--2-2-3| at a tempo of about 180), I don't understand what makes it in 3/4... but I feel that special waltz feel in the Elliott Smith song.

I've been fascinated with time signatures since learning decades ago that "Mission Impossible" theme is in an unusual one. I'm also tickled by waltzes, especially in pop and recent artists (Ben Folds has a real thing for waltzes). Here's a short list of waltzes from my own CD collection:

Millionaire Waltz � Queen
Tennessee Waltz � Patty Page
My, My, My � Robb Thomas
Is There Any Way Out of This Dream � Crystal Gayle (Tom Waits, composer, soundtrack "One From the Heart")
My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys � Willie Nelson
What�s New, Pussycat? � Tom Jones
Boxing � Bette Midler (Ben Folds, composer)
Show Me the River � Eastmountain South
Smoke � Ben Folds
The Last Thing I Needed � Willie Nelson
Theme from �Valley of the Dolls� � Dionne Warwick
What the World Needs Now � Dionne Warwick
Try � Amelia
Needlework � Amelia
After You � Amelia
Songs of Love -- Ben Folds
Still -- Ben Folds
I Hear a Symphony � Stevie Wonder (Motown Rarities CD, saw this on a list of waltzes but when I listen to it it's hard to discern the waltz unless it's at hyperspeed)
Theme from �Mannix� � Billy May (I read somewhere this is a waltz but it seems hyperspeed again, doubled? 6/8?)
How Can I Be Sure? � The Young Rascals (6/8 again?)
____

This page of comments made great reading. I'm anxious to hear the podcast but am enjoying the music coming at me from "my" station right now, hope to get to the podcast soon though.

Does anyone know the time signature for Peter Gabriel's Kiss That Frog? I have been warming up to it (on drums) and have a real mental block regarding time...

Thanks for the post

When scoring music, how do you know the difference between 3/4 and 6/8...if it's a waltz feel (quarter note at about 104) wouldn't it be best to do notation in 3/4?

Thanks!
Janiece

I don't understand this calculation:

''If you write something in 4/4 at 98 bpm, then you are hearing 196 eighth notes in each minute (98 x 2). So, if you wanted to find a 6/8 feel where the eighth notes had the same length (ONE-two-three-TWO-two-three), then you would set your metronome to 63 (196/3)''

196/3 = 65.333, not '63' ?

I need to convert a song that's 95bpm in a 6/8 time signature to a 4/4. Any ideas what the corresponding new bpm should be? Maths was my weak point at school...

I was so confused at first by the whole time signature deal. I got 4/4(obviously), just four beats repeated. So it didn't take too long before I started trying to play songs in 3/4, 5/4, 7/4(never got around to 6/4). this article really helped me understand the difference between 3/4 & 6/8. Thank you!

I love to mix up signatures too, i'm currently (using the term loosely) "writing" a song with three meters of 6/8 and one of 7/8. (something i found about 7/8: thinking of it as 4/8 & 3/8 helps a lot when trying to play it.) it doesn't sound awkward, surprisingly, although someone expecting a 4/4 beat will probably raise an eyebrow! :D actually, when i added a section of 4/4, i wasn't totally sure what time signature it was at first...THAT sounded weird after my 3(6/8) + 1(7/8) beat! xD

another cool combination i tried: three meters of 4/4 and one of 3/4(or i suppose one could write it as two of 4/4 and one of 7/4; you could still have the bit of waltz, but it would allow more flexibility. i don't think you'd want to write a 7/4 beat in 3/4 + 4/4 meter!)

I am a huge fan of progressive genres and I'm surprised that Dream Theater eluded mention in this article. They've messed around with a LOT of odd time signatures. Personally, I feel that 7/8 is the most natural time signature to me. "The Cinema Show" by Genesis is the best example of that time signature. The rest of my band is almost incapable of playing in a time signature that isn't 4/4, 3/4 or 6/8, so they all get lost if I start playing in something like 13/8 time. I love messing around with time signatures because (as a drummer) I am not graced with melodic lines.

Also, foersefiankica, 6/8 is usually counted in two using triplets, and 3/4 is counted in three using duples. Hope that helps.

Nice site you have!

Hey great article but I'd just like to make a correction. Radiohead's "Morning Bell" (Kid a version) is actually in 10/8 not 5/4. Count over it in 5 and the snare hits and piano chords line up on really weird beats like the upbeat of 2 in the case of the first snare hit. It just sounds really odd and strangely syncopated. Count in 10/8 and first snare hit falls on 4 which is a strong beat in 10/8, presuming you count appropriate 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2 1-2. Moreover, the final little snare roll in the measure starts on 9, another strong beat. The piano chords are struck on the strong beats 1, 4, 7, and 9.
Thanks!
C

Good article, and a good selection of songs. I don't know if I consider Nice to Know You to be 7/4 though...seems a lot more like 14/4 to me (4/4 + 2/4 + 4/4 + 4/4). The chorus is played half-time but the verse is (in my ears anyway) the "normal" beat.

John
www.oddtimemusic.com

Interessante Informationen.

Radiohead's "Everything in its Right Place" starts out as two bars of 4 + a bar of 2; But it seems to do something else during the "sucking a lemon..." and "two colors in my head..." parts.

Any ideas on what's going on?

Is it a bar of 6 + a bar of 4?

Dear P.
The time signature of "Everything In It's Right Place" is the same throughout the song. I personally view it as bars of 10 and do not break it up into 2 bars of 4 and a bar of 2. Even during the "sucking a lemon.." part, the song stays in 10. What makes it challenging to count is the vocal/keyboard syncopation. Also, what can be confusing is the song doesn't start on beat 1. It starts 9, 10, and then 1. If you start counting the beginning like it starts on 1 it will really mess with your head. For help counting through the "sucking a lemon.." part, maybe set a metronome (if you have one). It should help isolate the syncopation a bit better and lock you on to the beats. I hope that helps.
Matthew

i once heard pianist frank martin play a song in 23. the measure numbers varied between 3s and 4s, but the phrase was 23 beats long. and it grooved! if you don't count and just dance, those odd meters can be fantastic! he pointed out that in some places, bulgaria for example, 7 and 9 and 11 are not strange, they are the usual time sigs, people are used to them and dance to them, and don't think they're strange at all.